MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Senator Angus King of Maine is among the lawmakers asking questions of Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth today. He is an independent who caucuses with Democrats and he's on the line with us now. Good morning, Senator King. Thanks for joining us.
ANGUS KING: Good morning. Glad to be with you.
MARTIN: So this is his, Hegseth's, first appearance before the Senate Armed Services Committee since the war against Iran began. What's your most pressing question for the secretary?
KING: Well, before I answer that question, there's a remarkable fact in the way you stated it. This war has been going on for two months. And yesterday and today are the very first open hearings where the American people have an opportunity to try to understand the causes of the war, what the war is all about, what the resolution might be. And I think it's shocking that we're in a significant conflict with - there's never been a public hearing until yesterday in the House and today in the Senate.
Now, having said that, technically, the hearing today is about the Defense Department budget. But obviously, we're going to be talking about a lot of other things. But there are things in this budget that are very, I think, significant. The first is, what is the cost? They gave a number yesterday of 25 billion. I want to dig into that. I think that's a lowball estimate, and of course, it doesn't count the $650 million a day it's costing us all at the pump. That's a cost as well that's being imposed on the American people.
Secondly, and there hasn't been much discussion, this budget zeros out support for Ukraine. Zero. And last year, they zeroed it out again, but Congress appropriated $400 million, which hasn't been disbursed. And here we are three quarters of the way through the year, and they haven't even done what Congress allocated last year. So I think that's a very significant question.
And the American people should know that basically this administration has abandoned Ukraine. The support, except for intelligence support, but material support has gone pretty close to zero. And so those are some of the things that I want to talk about. Obviously, I want to also talk about where we are in Iran and what the path forward is.
MARTIN: So you've given us a lot to talk about here, so let's try to go through some of these things. Well, the first question is, let's go to where you started first, which is the whole question of congressional oversight. The war, as you pointed out, began on February 28. President Trump only formally notified Congress on March 2. The law requires the president to seek congressional approval after 60 days for further actions against Iran or secure an extension. You are among the senators who already forced five votes to limit Trump's war powers, but all those votes have failed. So do you see any opening for change? Do you think any possibility that that will change?
KING: Well, all those votes failed because of pretty much unanimous, I think, except for Rand Paul, Republican opposition to some accountability for the oversight that the Constitution requires. What I've been hearing is that the 60 days is somewhat of a red line for at least some additional Republicans, that they're going to start to say, well, you know, this is the law, 60 days, and now it's time to impose some kind of oversight. Whether that will happen, I don't know. But again, the real issue here on getting into this thing - clearly, the president has the power to defend the country in case of an imminent attack.
There was no imminent threat here. There's no evidence of an imminent threat. Yes, we've been in an adversarial relationship with Iran for 47 years, but this was a war that was - it was chosen. The date was chosen. There was no reason that the administration could not have come to Congress - they were building up forces there for weeks before this occurred - and said, this is what we're planning to do. This is why we're planning to do it. And persuade the American people that this was a beneficial expenditure of the blood and treasure of this country.
MARTIN: So let's talk about the question of cost. In the Defense Secretary's testimony before the House on Wednesday, he was asked about the cost of the war from Congressman Salud Carbajal. This is what he said.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PETE HEGSETH: Well, as our comptroller laid out, the estimate is less than 25 billion at this point, as far as an expenditure. And the question I would ask this committee is, what is it worth to ensure that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon?
MARTIN: What do you make of his response?
KING: Well (laughter), the question is, how are they going to ensure that Iran never gets a nuclear weapon? The nuclear material that's there - there are two pieces of this. The nuclear material that's there that we know of is buried under I don't know how many feet of rubble. Getting that out is either - there's only two ways. One is diplomacy. One is agreement with the Iranian government to give up that material. The other is troops. You can't do it from the air. You can't do it by bombing. And so, you know, that's one of the pieces of this that we've got to consider.
And the other piece is - and I've been learning this for years - you can't bomb knowledge. And if there are people in Iran, there're scientists and engineers that have been working on this problem for years, the question is, how do you ultimately prevent them from racing toward a bomb, which this whole war that we've been in may provoke them to do? So I think the answer has to be some kind of diplomatic solution. And it would make me feel better if our negotiators were people that had some expertise in nuclear matters because I think there could be a deal to be had. But we've got to have people on our side that know what's being offered and what the implications are.
MARTIN: Well, you know, to that end, a ceasefire has been in place for about three weeks. But, you know, it does not appear, at least from what we can see, that there seems to be much progress on a diplomatic solution or fully reopening the Strait of Hormuz. This morning, Iran's Supreme Leader Mojtaba Khamenei, he said in a published written message that Iran will protect its nuclear and missile capabilities and that the only place Americans belong in the Persian Gulf is at the bottom of its waters. I mean, given that, you know, is the administration consulting with anyone in Congress about the next steps? Or what do you understand or what do you think the next steps that the administration might take?
KING: Well, the answer to your first question is no, as far as I know. I mean, they may be talking to some of the Republican members, but as far as I've been able to determine, they're not - they're telling us what they're doing, but I wouldn't call it anything close to consultation. What has to happen next, I think, is to continue efforts toward moving for a diplomatic solution, and also to be realistic. It's important to remember, until this war started, the Strait of Hormuz was open. It's been open, you know, forever. And suddenly...
MARTIN: OK.
KING: ...It's closed. But it's closed largely because of the war that we undertook.
MARTIN: We have to leave it there for now. That's independent Senator Angus King of Maine. Senator King, thank you so much for talking with us. I do hope we'll talk again.
KING: Absolutely. Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF PELICAN'S "WINDS WITH HANDS") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR鈥檚 programming is the audio record.
